Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Step, step, close hold let the borrow light unfold Stitch from the do signals in a no code oh Step, step, don't let go.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Welcome to Bass by Bass, the papercast that brings genomics to you wherever you are.
Thanks for listening, and don't forget to follow and rate us in your podcast. Appreciate.
[00:00:28] Speaker C: Good to be here.
[00:00:29] Speaker B: So, today, I want to start with something we all just sort of take for granted in biology. A fundamental rule.
[00:00:35] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Your DNA is yours. It's a closed system. When one of your cells divides, it passes your blueprint down. It's a completely vertical line of inheritance.
[00:00:44] Speaker C: Right. Clonal inheritance. It's really the central dogma of how multicellular animals work. Your cells are loyal to you. They don't just, you know, reach over to a neighboring cell and grab a big chunk of its chromosomes.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: Exactly. Bacteria do that stuff all the time. They swap plasmids around. But for complex animals like us mammals, the whole assumption has been that our genomes are.
Well, they're locked down. The self is kept very separate from.
[00:01:09] Speaker C: The other, and for good reason. We have entire immune systems designed specifically to prevent that kind of genetic blurring from happening.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: But the paper we're getting into today, it basically takes a sledgehammer to that assumption. I want you to just picture a scenario that sounds like it's straight out of science fiction.
[00:01:27] Speaker C: I'm listening.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Imagine a single rogue cell, a cancer cell, that doesn't just infect an animal, but it actually reaches into that animal's cells and steals a massive piece of its genetic code.
[00:01:39] Speaker C: And we're not talking about a tiny snippet here. This isn't a virus injecting a little bit of rna. We're talking about a complex animal cell absorbing chromosomes from a totally different animal.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: And then stitching them into its own nucleus and then carrying that stolen DNA around the world for thousands of years.
[00:01:57] Speaker C: It really changes how you think about cancer. It stops being just a disease and becomes more like a. A collector. A biological entity that's been traveling through history, picking up these little genetic souvenirs from the hosts it infects.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: It's wild. And for years, scientists knew that mitochondria, the little power plants in our cells, could sometimes hop between cells. That was known.
[00:02:17] Speaker C: Right. But that's happening outside the nucleus. The nucleus itself. That's the vault. That's where the main blueprint is kept. And it was supposed to be completely locked down. Impenetrable.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Well, according to this new research, someone picked the lock. The vault has been breached.
[00:02:31] Speaker C: It absolutely has.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: So before we get into the details of this. This incredible genetic heist. We have to give credit where it's due. This is just some amazing scientific detective work.
[00:02:40] Speaker C: It really is. Today we celebrate the work of the transmissible cancer group at the department of veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge. Specifically, we're digging into the research led by Kevin Gorey and senior author Elizabeth Murchison.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: And their paper is titled Horizontal transfer of nuclear DNA in transmissible cancer. It was published in pnas, the proceedings of the national Academy of sciences, back in April of 2025.
[00:03:05] Speaker C: A fantastic piece of work.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: Okay, so to really grasp how big a deal this is, we have to talk about the subject itself. Transmissible cancers.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: For most of us, cancer is.
Well, it's a deeply personal tragedy. It starts in you, and it ends with you.
[00:03:20] Speaker C: That's the normal path. Yes. Cancer is usually an evolutionary dead end. It dies when its host dies. But, you know, nature.
Nature always finds a loophole.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: And in this case, the loophole is that the cancer itself becomes infectious.
[00:03:33] Speaker C: Exactly. The cancer cell line learns how to survive the death of its host by physically moving to a new one. It becomes a parasite. Through touch or mating, biting any physical contact where living cancer cells can be transferred, they basically graft themselves onto the new host.
And the most famous example, and the.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Star of this paper, is ctvt, Canine transmissible venereal tumor.
[00:03:57] Speaker C: That's the one. And there are others, like the facial tumors in Tasmanian devils, which are just devastating.
[00:04:02] Speaker B: But CTDT is unique because of its age. Right. How old is this thing?
[00:04:06] Speaker C: It's a living fossil. I mean, genetic analysis shows that this single continuous cell line started in one dog somewhere between 6 and 8,000 years ago.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: Okay, let's just pause on that. 6,000 years ago, a single dog, the founder dog, got a tumor. That dog died. But cancer cells didn't.
[00:04:23] Speaker C: Correct. Every single CTVT tumor in every infected dog anywhere in the world today is a direct clonal descendant of that one ancient dog. It's a lineage that has outlived entire empires.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: So you have this ancient cell line that's been interacting with millions of individual dogs over millennia. And we already knew it had stolen mitochondrial DNA.
[00:04:45] Speaker C: Yes, that had been documented. But the big question, the real holy grail, Was whether it had ever managed to steal the main prize, the nuclear DNA.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: And finding that is so much harder, isn't it?
[00:04:56] Speaker C: Oh, way harder. In a normal cancer, the tumor and the host are the same person. Their DNA is identical. So you can't tell if the tumor stole a gene from the liver because it's all the same genetic code to begin with.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: But with ctvt, you have this unique situation.
[00:05:10] Speaker C: Exactly. The Tumor has the DNA of the 6,000-year-old founder dog. The host dog it's infecting has its own modern DNA. They were two genetically distinct individuals.
[00:05:19] Speaker B: So in theory, if you scan the tumor's genome, you should be able to spot a piece of DNA that looks like it belongs to a modern host, not the ancient founder.
[00:05:26] Speaker C: In theory, yes. It's like going through a traveler's suitcase and finding something that definitely wasn't made in their home country. You know, they picked it up on their journey. The problem is, the suitcase is enormous, and clothes look kind of similar.
[00:05:40] Speaker B: So how did they do it? How do you find that one foreign souvenir in a massive ancient genome?
[00:05:46] Speaker C: The Cambridge team used this really, really smart screening method. They sequenced 174 tumor genomes, CTVT samples from all over the world, plus the devil tumors. And they were looking for a very specific kind of anomaly.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: This flippin SNP technique.
[00:06:02] Speaker C: Exactly. Snp? Single nucleotide polymorphism.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: Let's just quickly break that down.
[00:06:07] Speaker C: SNP is just a typo. Basically a single letter variat in the DNA code at one specific spot. Most copies of the code might have an A, but some might have a B.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Okay, so how does SMP flip?
[00:06:18] Speaker C: Well, remember, the tumor is a clone. So if the ancient founder dog was, say, AA at a specific spa, it had two copies of the A version. Then every single one of its descendant tumor cells should also be aa.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: It should be locked in.
[00:06:31] Speaker C: It should be. But what the researchers looked for were regions where the tumor suddenly became ab.
[00:06:37] Speaker B: Ah, I see. So if the founder was aa, and suddenly the tumor has a B, where did that B come from?
[00:06:44] Speaker C: Precisely. The most logical explanation isn't a random mutation, but that it physically acquired that B version from a host it was infecting. At some point, it stole the host's hypo.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: It's brilliant.
[00:06:55] Speaker C: It is.
They scanned for these regions where the tumor lost its sameness, its homozygosity, and suddenly look like a mix of two different dogs.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: And I'm guessing they had to double and triple check this. It feels like a sequencing error could easily mimic that.
[00:07:09] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. They validated it with cytogenetics, literally painting the chromosomes with fluorescent probes to see them under a microscope. They also used complex statistics to trace the ancestry of the DNA fragments. They had to be certain it wasn't just noise.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: Okay, so the moment of truth. What did they find?
[00:07:25] Speaker C: Well, in the Tasmanian devil tumors.
Nothing. Their genomes were clean. No signs of nuclear transfer.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Which kind of makes sense. Those tumors are only a few decades old, not millennia.
[00:07:35] Speaker C: That's probably the key factor. But in ctvt, they hit the jackpot. But only in one specific sublineage of the cancer, a branch called ctvta.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: And they found a piece of stolen DNA they named NHT1.
[00:07:48] Speaker C: Yes. Nuclear horizontal transfer one. And it's not some small, neat little gene. It's a monster.
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Describe this monster for us.
[00:07:57] Speaker C: It's a Frankenstein chromosome. It's a 15 megabase chunk of DNA, which is huge. And it's not one clean piece. It's made of 11 different fragments, all stitched together that originally came from six different canine chromosomes.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: Wait, wait. So it grabbed a bit from chromosome 1, a bit from chromosome 9, another from 21, and just sewed them all together into this patchwork quilt of DNA?
[00:08:17] Speaker C: That's exactly it. And this new.
This patchwork element then fused onto one of the tumors own chromosomes. It's now a permanent part of the cancer's genome.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: That sounds like a really violent event took place.
[00:08:29] Speaker C: It must have been. The sheer chaos of the structure tells us how it probably happened. The leading theory is phagocytosis.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: The cell eating something.
[00:08:36] Speaker C: Right. The cancer cell probably swallowed a dying host cell, or maybe just a fragment of one called an apoptotic body.
As the cell dies, its DNA shatters into pieces.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: And the cancer cell ate this package of broken DNA.
[00:08:50] Speaker C: And instead of just digesting it for energy, its own DNA repair machinery saw all these broken ends and sort of panicked. It tried to stitch them all back together, but did it haphazardly. And then incorporated the whole mess into its own genome.
A salvage operation.
Gone, created.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: And this is the amazing part they can figure out when this happened. They found the ghost doll.
[00:09:13] Speaker C: This is where it feels like time travel. By looking at the number of mutations that have accumulated over time. Sort of a molecular clock. They dated the theft to about 2,000 years ago.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: 2,000 years? We're talking about the Roman Empire.
[00:09:24] Speaker C: Exactly. And they can even trace the ancestry of the dog that donated the DNA based on its specific SNPs. It wasn't a European dog. It was related to ancient dog populations from the Middle east and Central Asia.
[00:09:36] Speaker B: Which matches where this CTVTA lineage is mostly found today, right? Yes, in India and Nepal.
[00:09:41] Speaker C: Precisely. So you have this clear story. Two thousand years ago, somewhere in south or Central Asia, a dog with Middle Eastern ancestry got this cancer.
Inside that one animal, this incredibly rare violent event happened. The cancer stole A piece of that dog and has been carrying its ghost ever since.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: A piece of a dog that walked the earth two millennia ago is, in a way, still alive, Preserved inside these cancer cells.
[00:10:09] Speaker C: It's a phenomenal form of biological preservation.
[00:10:12] Speaker B: So that leads to the big evolutionary question. If the cancer has held onto this baggage for 2000 years, copying it billions of times, it must be useful, right? Evolution doesn't usually keep things around that are just dead weight.
[00:10:23] Speaker C: That was the immediate hypothesis. Maybe it stole a gene that helps it hide from the immune system or grow faster.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: Something that gives it a superpower.
[00:10:30] Speaker C: But the analysis points to a surprising.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: No, really, it's just useless.
[00:10:35] Speaker C: It appears to be what they call a neutral passenger. Now, the genes on the stolen fragment are active. They're being transcribed into rna. But they don't seem to give the cancer any measurable survival advantage.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: The paper had that one amazing example with the arfgef3 gene.
[00:10:51] Speaker C: Oh, that's the perfect illustration.
So the original cancer, the founder's genome, had a broken copy of this gene, ARFGEF3. It was non functional, and the cancer.
[00:11:01] Speaker B: Was doing just fine without it.
[00:11:03] Speaker C: Correct. But then the stolen DNA, the NHT one, happened to bring along a working copy of that exact same gene. So it accidentally rescued the cancer's broken gene.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: It fixed it.
[00:11:13] Speaker C: It fixed it for a while. But here's the punchline.
Sometime over the last 2,000 years, that new, stolen working copy also broke. It picked up a mutation and stopped working, too.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: So the cancer broke the spare part, yes.
[00:11:26] Speaker C: And the fact that the cancer was fine before the rescue and it's fine after the spare part broke is pretty conclusive proof that this gene just doesn't matter to its survival.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: It's just luggage. A genetic hitchhiker.
[00:11:36] Speaker C: An ancient hitchhiker. The cancer picked it up two millennia ago and just hasn't gotten around to kicking it out.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: But even if it's useless to the cancer, the discovery itself is hugely important for science.
[00:11:47] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. It proves for the first time that nuclear horizontal gene transfer is possible in mammals in a natural setting. We knew it could happen in a lab dish, but seeing it in the wild is a massive confirmation.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: And it also says something about the cancer stability. We think of cancer as this chaotic, unstable mess, but this lineage has been stable enough to preserve an accident for 2,000 years.
[00:12:12] Speaker C: It's a great point. It shows that these ancient transmissible cancers have reached a sort of equilibrium. They're stable enough to act as a living archaeological record. We have a snapshot of an iron age dog's genome because it was trapped inside a tumor.
[00:12:27] Speaker B: So let's pull back to the big picture. What's the take home message from all of this? How does this change things?
[00:12:32] Speaker C: I think it fundamentally challenges our idea of the genome as an isolated fortress. This study shows that very rarely the drawbridge can come down and genetic material can cross between individuals.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: Now, granted, it's one event in thousands of years. It's not happening all the time.
[00:12:47] Speaker C: It's exceptionally rare.
But in evolution, rare doesn't mean impossible. It's the proof of principle. It shows that the biological machinery for this to happen exists in mammalian cells.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: It really makes you wonder, what does this mean for our understanding of cellular identity? If a cancer cell can act as a vessel for another individual's DNA for two millennia, are we looking at a new mechanism of evolution that we've mostly overlooked?
[00:13:13] Speaker C: That is the provocative question, isn't it? We think of evolution as being strictly vertical from parent to child. But horizontal transfer, even if it's incredibly rare, allows for these huge sudden jumps. A way to acquire new traits in an instant.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: It makes you wonder what else could be hiding in these ancient genomes.
[00:13:31] Speaker C: A ghost in the machine, literally.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: And if it can happen in dogs, could it happen in humans?
[00:13:35] Speaker C: We don't have a known human transmissible cancer that's thousands of years old. But it does raise fundamental questions about how our cells interact with their environment. If a cell can swallow and integrate foreign DNA, what are the limits? We just don't know yet.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: A fascinating and slightly unsettling new frontier. The idea that we aren't just descendants of our parents. But maybe, just maybe, we're collectors from our neighbors too.
[00:14:01] Speaker C: It definitely adds a new layer to the tree of life. Maybe it's more of a web.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: The web of life.
[00:14:06] Speaker C: I like that pleasure as always.
[00:14:08] Speaker B: This has been absolutely fascinating. We're going to wrap it up there.
This episode was based on an open Access article under the CC BY 4.0 license. You can find a direct link to the paper and the license in our episode description. If you enjoyed this, follow or subscribe in your podcast app and leave a five star rating. If you'd like to support our work, use the donation link in the description now. Stay with us for an original track created especially for this episode and inspired by the article you've just heard about. Thanks for listening and join us next time as we explore more science. Bass by bass.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Chalk on the line A clone on the move Built to enjoy still something slips in through a heart open door Two heartbeats of Meddling one quiet frame A stranger spark wearing my name.
Not a clean inheritance Not a perfect chain Pieces drift over like light through rain if it can cross it can stay if it can land, it can play Step, step, close hold Let the borrowed light unfold Stitch from the dark still rise to bold new signal In a no code oh, oh, oh Step, step, don't let go I falls apart can learn to flow across the border through the cold Let the borrow light un O.
In the margins Dust on a page Old rose humming through a modern cage Fragments in orbit Snapping a line and knot of bright threads in a picture patient design Where a last breath faded something was cast now it's singing in the present tense of the past.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Not.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: A clean inheritance Not a perfect shape Pieces drift over like light through rain if it can cross it can stay if it can land it can fade.
Step, don't let go it falls apart across the border through the cold Let the power of life unfold Hush of a dying self Soft as a sigh A midnight delivery passing by no man, there's no blame Just a quiet exchange A hidden switch in the marrow will.
[00:17:44] Speaker C: Change.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: I'm not only what I was I'm also what I took and chose to trust Step, step, close hold Let the bar light unfold Stitch from the dark still rise still new signal in a no Step, step, don't let go I falls a parking lot too.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: Across.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: The border through the cold Let the moral light unfold.
